Mustang problem ?!?

[figo]

Mofu (Rick) 302 (but now technically a 305) 5.0 Mustand (foxbody, think its a '91)

- engine turns
- has fuel
- has spark/spark plugs are ok
- has air
- timing chain is good
- distributor/wires are ok
- injector plugs are in the right injector

I will check compression tomorrow.

Any ideas??

**rebuilt engine ground up with a supercharger set-up**

thanks,

[b18a1+gsr-trans]

any backfires or pops or anything?

is there fuel in the cylinders?

my shot in the dark would be fuel pressure/ or direction through the regulator

if you have spark and fuel i would expect atleast a backfire......

[figo]

... thanks

No backfire or any explosion for that matter. the injectors and fuel pump are more then sufficient to feed fuel. There is fuel in cylinders, the timing is good. The only thing that Im thinking is that the exhaust valve stay a little open and pressure is escaping but I'll go over to his place tomorrow and check compression.

[mx3frik]

recheck the spark plug wires? Could have em on in the wrong firing order?

[MOFU]

recheck the spark plug wires? Could have em on in the wrong firing order?

made sure to have the on the right firing order...

it cranks, but doesn't "start"

like figo said, it has spark, fuel and air...i dunno anymore lol

[-=M=-]

that sucks Rick, how does the upper intake look, did ya "clean it up"

[b18a1+gsr-trans]

mabe bad gas?


try feeding propane in the intake while cranking (turn off fuel pump) start smelling for propane at the tail pipe, still no ignition, then its spark your missing, if you get a backfire or sputter, start looking at your fuel delivery, unless you can already smell gas at the pipe(would indicate valve timing is good cause the motor is effectively pumping air)

otherwise ...weak spark...

[b18a1+gsr-trans]

i think having the firing order wrong would net you some vicious backfires, especially through a supercharger

[MOFU]

mabe bad gas?


try feeding propane in the intake while cranking (turn off fuel pump) start smelling for propane at the tail pipe, still no ignition, then its spark your missing, if you get a backfire or sputter, start looking at your fuel delivery, unless you can already smell gas at the pipe(would indicate valve timing is good cause the motor is effectively pumping air)

otherwise ...weak spark...

you could smell the fuel while it's cranking...we shot some "quick start" and almost fired up but that's about it...

now that the battery is dead, can't do much it's charging as we speak..

Marc, didn't clean up the intake, left it red, looks good with the blue and chrome 8)

[b18a1+gsr-trans]

is the fuel smell coming from the intake or tail pipe?

[MOFU]

is the fuel smell coming from the intake or tail pipe?
I don't have the tail pipe installed, just the headers..

and you can smell it through the headers

[b18a1+gsr-trans]

and youve tested spark from the coil wire AND plug wires (more than 1)?

[MOFU]

and youve tested spark from the coil wire AND plug wires (more than 1)?

yup, all with a nice solid spark...

[b18a1+gsr-trans]

and grounds?

[MOFU]

grounds are all good, and connected

[b18a1+gsr-trans]

humm, other than being flooded im out of ideas, sorry man

im interested to know what you guys end up finding

[MOFU]

humm, other than being flooded im out of ideas, sorry man

im interested to know what you guys end up finding

well, until i find out what the problem is, i'll let ya know..it's probably something stupid and staring me in the face :P

i'm gonna call my uncle see if he can come down and check it..if not i'll put it on a float and drive it to a garage to get it checked out

[Zenar]

Maybe there is a problem with the charger, example (Belt pully routed backwards)
Can you disconnect the charger? or is it direct on the intake manifold.

[Zenar]

Maybe there is a problem with the charger, example (Belt pully routed backwards)
Can you disconnect the charger? or is it direct on the intake manifold.
What about crank sensor?

[b18a1+gsr-trans]

1 more idea, any chance your crank angle sensor(cam sensor?) is off by 180 degrees?

[b18a1+gsr-trans]

Maybe there is a problem with the charger, example (Belt pully routed backwards)
Can you disconnect the charger? or is it direct on the intake manifold.
What about crank sensor?

creepy :shock:

[Zenar]

Maybe there is a problem with the charger, example (Belt pully routed backwards)
Can you disconnect the charger? or is it direct on the intake manifold.
What about crank sensor?

creepy :shock:
LOL, great minds think alike!

[MOFU]

crank sensor??? never seen that...

as far as the charger, it's just bolted on, didn't add the belt on it yet..

how do you check the crank sensor?

[Zenar]

My guess is a multi meter while turning it over... Or get a spare one.
Crack sensor is either located on or near teh crank pully, or cams
I know my 3400 had 3 crank sensors, but your 5.0 is from 91 and it's american so my guess is at the crank.

[Zenar]

What type of ignition system is it in the 5.0? DIS?

[MOFU]

What type of ignition system is it in the 5.0? DIS?

MSD

[Zenar]

Yeah, that wasn't the answer I wanted =)

your msd is it the MSD-DIS 4?

[MOFU]

Yeah, that wasn't the answer I wanted =)

your msd is it the MSD-DIS 4?
lol..sorry...and yah, it's the msd-dis 4

[Zenar]

Did you have the dis system working before you did this work? Could it be the MSD system?

See you might be getting spark but your timming might be way off due to a faulty crank or dis system. So it's nor firing when it should be.

I know with my system, I had a crank sensor problem and it would turn over, had fuel, was sucking air and had spark.

[MOFU]

Did you have the dis system working before you did this work? Could it be the MSD system?

See you might be getting spark but your timming might be way off due to a faulty crank or dis system. So it's nor firing when it should be.

I know with my system, I had a crank sensor problem and it would turn over, had fuel, was sucking air and had spark.
the msd system i didn't even touch and was working before i did the work...

but as far as the crank sensor...i have no idea were that would be nor have i seen one lol....couldn't tell ya man

[Zenar]

Did you have the dis system working before you did this work? Could it be the MSD system?

See you might be getting spark but your timming might be way off due to a faulty crank or dis system. So it's nor firing when it should be.

I know with my system, I had a crank sensor problem and it would turn over, had fuel, was sucking air and had spark.
the msd system i didn't even touch and was working before i did the work...

but as far as the crank sensor...i have no idea were that would be nor have i seen one lol....couldn't tell ya man
well to find your crank sensor, basically your msd is just a piggy back to your DIS system. So from your dis system you should have a set of wires going ot your ecu(which suply's power to the unit), and a set of wires going to your crank sensor. atleast that was the way mine was.

[MOFU]

Did you have the dis system working before you did this work? Could it be the MSD system?

See you might be getting spark but your timming might be way off due to a faulty crank or dis system. So it's nor firing when it should be.

I know with my system, I had a crank sensor problem and it would turn over, had fuel, was sucking air and had spark.
the msd system i didn't even touch and was working before i did the work...

but as far as the crank sensor...i have no idea were that would be nor have i seen one lol....couldn't tell ya man
well to find your crank sensor, basically your msd is just a piggy back to your DIS system. So from your dis system you should have a set of wires going ot your ecu(which suply's power to the unit), and a set of wires going to your crank sensor. atleast that was the way mine was.

hm..i'll have to look for that and if i do find it...what am i suppose to do...turn the sensor around?
would it be like the MAF sensor that if it's installed backwards, the car will just stall?

[Zenar]

Did you have the dis system working before you did this work? Could it be the MSD system?

See you might be getting spark but your timming might be way off due to a faulty crank or dis system. So it's nor firing when it should be.

I know with my system, I had a crank sensor problem and it would turn over, had fuel, was sucking air and had spark.
the msd system i didn't even touch and was working before i did the work...

but as far as the crank sensor...i have no idea were that would be nor have i seen one lol....couldn't tell ya man
well to find your crank sensor, basically your msd is just a piggy back to your DIS system. So from your dis system you should have a set of wires going ot your ecu(which suply's power to the unit), and a set of wires going to your crank sensor. atleast that was the way mine was.

hm..i'll have to look for that and if i do find it...what am i suppose to do...turn the sensor around?
would it be like the MAF sensor that if it's installed backwards, the car will just stall?
Nope, to be honest I wouldn't know that much about that sensor. I know it works off of a magnet. But I have been looking at the wiring diagrams and nothing shows any crank sensors.

Main Harness
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangMainHarness.gif

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif


I am going ot go on a limb here and ask, did you try holding the TB open while starting her?

[MOFU]

Did you have the dis system working before you did this work? Could it be the MSD system?

See you might be getting spark but your timming might be way off due to a faulty crank or dis system. So it's nor firing when it should be.

I know with my system, I had a crank sensor problem and it would turn over, had fuel, was sucking air and had spark.
the msd system i didn't even touch and was working before i did the work...

but as far as the crank sensor...i have no idea were that would be nor have i seen one lol....couldn't tell ya man
well to find your crank sensor, basically your msd is just a piggy back to your DIS system. So from your dis system you should have a set of wires going ot your ecu(which suply's power to the unit), and a set of wires going to your crank sensor. atleast that was the way mine was.

hm..i'll have to look for that and if i do find it...what am i suppose to do...turn the sensor around?
would it be like the MAF sensor that if it's installed backwards, the car will just stall?
Nope, to be honest I wouldn't know that much about that sensor. I know it works off of a magnet. But I have been looking at the wiring diagrams and nothing shows any crank sensors.

Main Harness
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangMainHarness.gif

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif


I am going ot go on a limb here and ask, did you try holding the TB open while starting her?

wide open my friend

[Zenar]

You said you fired some quick start and she almost started...
That brings me back to fuel.

I don't see how your having spark and are putting fuel in and not getting any backfires or something.

I just read up on one of the mustang forums that this issue could be ecu, have you tried pulling the code?

[MOFU]

You said you fired some quick start and she almost started...
That brings me back to fuel.

I don't see how your having spark and are putting fuel in and not getting any backfires or something.

I just read up on one of the mustang forums that this issue could be ecu, have you tried pulling the code?
when she almost fired up with the quick start, it was like she backfired, although we had one side of the header off and you could see the mist comming out....

as far as pulling the code, no i didn't try that...

[Zenar]

This is what your distributer looks like?

http://www.poweredbyford.com/store/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=3266

The crank sensor is built into the distributer cap =)

[Zenar]

You said you fired some quick start and she almost started...
That brings me back to fuel.

I don't see how your having spark and are putting fuel in and not getting any backfires or something.

I just read up on one of the mustang forums that this issue could be ecu, have you tried pulling the code?
when she almost fired up with the quick start, it was like she backfired, although we had one side of the header off and you could see the mist comming out....

as far as pulling the code, no i didn't try that... Mist? it should be bright and flashing from the fuel still on fire. When I had my headers off you could still see the flashes.

[MOFU]

You said you fired some quick start and she almost started...
That brings me back to fuel.

I don't see how your having spark and are putting fuel in and not getting any backfires or something.

I just read up on one of the mustang forums that this issue could be ecu, have you tried pulling the code?
when she almost fired up with the quick start, it was like she backfired, although we had one side of the header off and you could see the mist comming out....

as far as pulling the code, no i didn't try that... Mist? it should be bright and flashing from the fuel still on fire. When I had my headers off you could still see the flashes.

yah..just mist..no flames lol

[MOFU]

yah..that's what the distributor looks like

[Zenar]

well, I give up for today lol,
try the compression testing
but if the quick start had the motor firing a couple times I would put my money on fuel.

[MOFU]

well, I give up for today lol,
try the compression testing
but if the quick start had the motor firing a couple times I would put my money on fuel.
lol..thanks for the help man..i'll try something els tomorrow night 8)

[MotleyDrew]

Make sure that little orage/red wire behind the upper intake manifold is properly grounded ! It is your fuel injection ground and I have noticed alot of people miss this when re-installing the motor!

[jason0911]

ive had that problem ... turned out to be the modual on the distributor... i wanted to start but died right awaay.. change it.. even if you have fire.. dosent mean you have continuis fire.. those modual go often.. get it new for 60 80$ from any parts stroe

[Andre]

If you have mist that makes me think you have an ignition problem... Not fuel..

[figo]

His problem is that he has a Ford :P I keep telling him that he should of bought a Supra :D

[NoLimits]

Lets get back to basics, theres no crank sensor it has a distributer.

There is a nice blue spark or orange spark from the plugs?

When you pull the plugs out after trying to start are they wet or dry?

Are the injectors cycling?

Do you get any popping sounds out of the intake?

Do not use any starting fluid rick, especialy if your not getting fuel, you will run the rings completly dry on the cylinder walls and gall the new rings (ie fucked)

I think it was motleydrew that said a ground wire might not be connected for the injector rail, get out your multimeter, no ground = no current flow.

[mx3frik]

like mike said, step back and rethink this. Its going to be something very simple. Specially if you had it running before you rebuilt it, that usually means that nothing has failed as suggested a few posts back. Recheck all your grounds/connectors, recheck for spark and fuel while cranking. Check fuel pressure, and check to make sure your timing/firing order is correct. I think, but im not sure that its possible to have the disty in a 5.0 180 degrees out. Try taking it out and reinstalling it. Take the disty cap off and use the rotor to turn it tilll it slides in nicely.

Did you recently install new injectors? How did the plugs look when you removed them to check for spark? Are they soaked ? Could it be flooding?

Those are the types of things to check and get back to us, you'll be running in no time at all.

[MOFU]

I'll check that all again later on today, thanks for the tips, now i need to get a new battery because i forgot i was charging it and went into the garage this morning to find the acid was overflowing through the top of the battery and you could hear it boil :shock:

[-=M=-]

SO did it start up

[b18a1+gsr-trans]

^^^^^

[MOFU]

no..i haven't had the chance to work on it this week nor weekend, been busy with work and well, i just got this massive cold of some sort...an hour and half sleep last night

[MOFU]

so i found out what the problem is
took the plenum off (upper intake) and un-bolted the fuel rail, left the injectors hooked up, had the the motor crank over a bit and the fuel goes through the fuel rail, cept the injectors doesn't open....just pops the injectors out and left me with a ton of fuel on the ground :oops:

can't figure it out...HELP PLEASE!!

[mx3frik]

weird how they'd pop out like that.

Injectors work by getting constant power and the ecu grounds them each time they fire. Check the wires going to the injectors for currant, sounds like they arnt being fired by the ecu, or arnt getting power.

[blackfoot]

i just jumped into the post now, and checked out the last page only,

mofu from what it sounds like, you forgot a ground somewhere. a ground that grounds the ecu and its internal components..

i ran into a small problem like this with a civic once

[blackfoot]

weird how they'd pop out like that.

Injectors work by getting constant power and the ecu grounds them each time they fire. Check the wires going to the injectors for currant, sounds like they arnt being fired by the ecu, or arnt getting power.

inejectors arent screwed in, the pressure of the fuelrail bolted in place is enough to keep them where they belong.

o-rings just keep them sealed.. and of course the injectors will blow off.. with 30soemthing psi of fuelpressure, .. hell the injectors will blow off anyways if they working.. pressure in the fuel rail is a constant, and the injectors takes turns to fire. anyone of the injectors will push off anyways because they aernt being used

[mx3frik]

weird how they'd pop out like that.

Injectors work by getting constant power and the ecu grounds them each time they fire. Check the wires going to the injectors for currant, sounds like they arnt being fired by the ecu, or arnt getting power.

inejectors arent screwed in, the pressure of the fuelrail bolted in place is enough to keep them where they belong.

o-rings just keep them sealed.. and of course the injectors will blow off.. with 30soemthing psi of fuelpressure, .. hell the injectors will blow off anyways if they working.. pressure in the fuel rail is a constant, and the injectors takes turns to fire. anyone of the injectors will push off anyways because they aernt being used

Not always true, when i was diagnosing a stuck injector on my car i pulled the fuel rails off my intake manifold and turned over the car. They all sprayed perfectly(well accept for the one that was stuck open) and didnt pop out of the fuel rail. Maybe my cars weird? who knows. either way id check the fuel rail harness and go from there.

[jason0911]

i didnt check the wiring but .... your not getting injector pusle right?... then check what i said before on your distributor.... i think its related.. ecm on them dizzy... injector pulse... i would think,

[blackfoot]

i didnt know mustang injectors received signal from the dizzy

[MOFU]

found the problem...after all this time, of checking, re-plugging grounds/clean them...uhm...turned out it was the air by pass sensor that was fubar...replaced it, now gotta work on the timing....have two foot flames comming out the back end...neat but can't really be too good huh? :lol:

[-=M=-]

hehehe, crazy rick, just like me, you wont have had much time behind the wheel this year